Hearing from Bell: What Rob Actually Believes Straight from His Own Mouth

   

I just may be the only blogger and Christian writer—especially of those who write on theology—who has not written a single word on Rob Bell, Universalism, Hell, and “Love Wins.” Don’t get me wrong, I have been chomping at the bit and lapping up the controversy. But fairly early on after Justin Taylor posted his article condemning Bell as a Universalist and the subsequent barrage of buckshot made at phantoms of heresy did I decide that I would wait to hear from Bell. I heard this cry on so many blogs and articles, “Wait for Bell!” But what followed on the heels of such calls for patience were various treatments and speculations of Rob Bell’s work and of his supposed heretical theology. All the topics which circulate around this controversy need to be discussed but many now have mud on their faces, having insisted that Bell was a universalist when in fact it is apparent that he is not.

And while there are dozens of things that need to be written on, I did not want a single blog dealing with Rob Bell or any related topic written on this site until his interview (which just so happens was broadcast last night). Indeed, what could I possibly add to the literally thousands of blogs and millions of comments condemning and praising Bell as a saint and as a devil. The whole issue is terribly ironic since the western Christian church has proven itself to be exactly what Bell says we need to free ourselves from. That sectarianism and hatred of one another must end. This was not what Christ intended for the body of Christ.

The Sermon Series

Several years ago Rob Bell launched a sermon series entitled “Love Wins,” a rethinking and re-treatment of the cross and what it means for the Christian. What Bell called his congregants to was to look beyond this idea that the cross is merely this sort of get-out-of-hell card, readying people for soul-evacuation when Christ comes to destroy the earth and the unrighteous. We are missing the point if all we see is the “eternal” redemption and salvation. This salvation and love is here, present among us. It is to be lived out now. In his introductory sermon to “Love Wins,” he said,

“If the cross is just about getting you out of Hell and into Heaven, than we’ve missed the cosmic significance of it. The cross is God’s way of pushing the way the universe works into an entirely new realm. Jesus overcame death so now the universe functions in a different way. It is not like it use to be because God defeated evil.”

Christ had choices. He could have burst off the cross and slaughtered all of them with his justified wrath. But He chose love and He continues to do so through the Church. “The cross, then,” Bell says, “is God’s way of saying ‘love wins’.”

And now we stand here in the same position with the ability to make choices. Love always wins. When we are hurt, abused, harmed, and harassed—love wins.

This call for the Church to support and love the community around them with unconditional love is much in line with what Christ taught—radical service and love even in the face of evil and oppression.

With these now ironic words, Bell closed his sermon:

“You’re going to get slapped. You’re going to get beaten. You’re  going to get mocked. You’re going to get spit on and you’re going to be betrayed. And you’re going to have friends who put the knife in your back. You’re going to get criticized.”

But through all of this we need to speak to each other and speak it a lot. Love wins.

The irony is that with the publishing of his book, millions have balked condemnations, called him unthinkable things, and some even declared “Bell will see that Hell is a real place when he goes there.” It is unfortunate that the Church, the body of Christ and His representatives on earth, could not show a little more love.

The Interview

Love Wins released last night and along with it, Bell delivered a great talk in which he was not only interviewed but also answered the questions of those present and those streaming the live event online. In his introductory talk, Bell shared his heart on who God was to him. God is love. Jesus came to show us this love and to extend this love to others. This was the “good news.” Christians, however, have forgotten this calling though they are called to take up this mantle of radical love. We have lost the plot. It is about love.

Bell went on later to explain that, though God is many other attributes, we have tended to—in many circles—emphasis his wrath rather than his love.

Here, I think Bell has some incredible insight. The fact that God even created us and then came down to redeem us and renew us is love beyond comprehension.

And this love exists in how we within the Church treat one another.

When pressed to make an authoritative statement on what exactly happens when the soul leaves the body and whether it sleeps or awaits a new body in heaven, Bell simply states that there is much speculation on such topics but warned that we should avoid turning our speculations into dogmas. He said,

“We should not turn our speculation into dogma. And I think we have seen a lot of that which is why people say this person is there and this person is there. This is how this unfolds. It’s like, we have no video evidence. So I think it is very important for people of faith to, yes, I believe in heaven. Yes I believe it’s real. Yes I believe it is somehow intermingled with this reality. And yet separate in some sense from this reality and how exactly all that works out, I don’t know. but I know within each of us there are very profound longings and I think they are longings for something, like C.S. Lewis, ‘We don’t really long for something that doesn’t exist.’ And then beyond that there is a point at which we are in mystery and speculation and lets enjoy that sort of speculation but when someone drives their stake in and says. ‘No it’s this.’ I’m like ‘ehhhh.’ Great, that is what you think.”

Heaven is a real place. Where it is and what it looks like, Bell does not know. He certainly seemed ambivalent to the concept that heaven was a place with “golden streets and where everyone drives a Ferrari. I think that has more to do with a cartoon.” And though, according to Bell, Heaven is not a cartoon like place as these images imply, it is real. And so is Hell. When asked whether Hell was a real place, Bell stated,

“There is a Hell because we see Hell everyday. Yeah we can resist and we can reject what it means to be fully human and good and decent and compassionate. So yes, there is. And we have that choice now. And I assume we have that choice into the future. Yes.”

While somewhat cryptic, Bell’s understanding of Heaven and Hell is somewhat different from what is normally described by Christians. Heaven can be brought to earth. Hell can be brought to earth. And both are made in the here and now. Just as Heaven, the literal place, touches earth so too does Hell. These places are both separate and yet are very present in and among us. It is the job of the Christian, therefore, to not only help rescue people from this present Hell that they create through their choices but also for the Hell afterword. Being saved, in Bell’s mind, is not some soul-evacuation leaving one with little or no care for the Hell and Heaven here on earth. We have a choice. And so beautifully, Bell describes this choice to love when describing our freedom within this possibility of Hell.

“God is love and love demands freedom. And God gives us what we want.” And for someone who says, I want nothing to do with peace, joy, reconciliation, forgiveness, and generosity, then God lets that person make that choice. But God wants so much more for them.

At the heart of this book, I suspect Bell is responding to the neo-reformed movement and the sort of authoritative and dogmatic position that they have taken over the church, dictating absolutes and condemning the rest. It was people from this movement, namely Piper and Taylor, who began the condemnations of Bell as a heretic and universalist. But is he? A decidedly and emphatic no. He calls himself an evangelical orthodox Christian to the bone.

When pressed about this and asked, “Are you a universalist?” He responded, “No. If by Universalist we mean there is a giant cosmic arm that swoops everybody in at some point whether you want to be there or not.” Without question, Bell is widening the road to Heaven—but not outside of Christ. He is only calling into question the tendency of those who make Christianity and following Christ an exclusive “club.” He went on to say,

“I think grace and love always rattles people. As soon as you say that perhaps this particular club of people who have decided that they are the orthodox ones and you say ‘I think it might be a little wider than that’ you’re threatening whole systems. You’re threatening whole ways of thinking….Do I think I am an Evangelical Orthodox to the bone? Yes. And I actually think orthodoxy is a terribly wide, diverse stream. And I think that is the real question here. It is the endless religious sort of compulsion to say ‘You’re in. We’re in. You’re out.’ To constantly narrow it and all of that. And I think that the vibrant, real, historic Christian faith is wide and leaves lots and lots of room for lots of variant perspectives. And when people say, ‘how can you say that?’ I say well lots of people have said that and they are firmly within the sort of Jesus tribe. It’s very diverse and wide. And that’s okay. That’s actually part of the strength. That’s actually part of its life and vibrancy. That’s why it is so beautiful to me. And evangelical means ‘good news.’ It’s a pronouncement of good news. It should be a buoyant, joyous, hopeful thing. People who want nothing to so with Christians should say ‘The things you’re talking about and the way you’re living and moving in the world. That is. That is good news. And I think we need to reclaim that.”

Bell has a huge vision for the Church and for Christ here on the earth now. I for one am excited to read his book and become this church that is more interested in loving, serving, and giving radically than condemning, loathing, and looking down upon people while pointing to God’s wrath. Yes, indeed, God has wrath. But Christ came showing love and we should do the same. Love does not necessitate watering down truth but does require a compassionate, radical, serving way of life to those around us.

Be sure to check out the interview for yourself. Click here.

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  • http://www.danielmajors.com Daniel Majors

    A really good article, thanks. There has been a lot of mud slinging at bell without too much of anyone to sit down and really wait and analyze what he is trying to say. I look forward to taking a read of his book and seeing about all this myself, but thank you for the fair shake offered to Mr. Bell, I think that is exactly the kind of love that he was talking about that we as christians need to be showing

  • Rip

    I don’t agree with your analysis or review. Plus, you have several grammar/spelling errors you might consider fixing (people may consider your opinin to be more intelligent).

    • Rip

      “opinion”! BWAHAHA! :) shame.

      • http://www.theology21.com jonathan Keck

        Thanks Rip. You’re absolutely right and I am no it. How would you better review his statements? I am curious.

  • Eric

    I haven’t listened to Bell’s interview and I don’t really know all of the conversation that has already taken place in this controversy. That being said, I find Bell’s answer to the question of being a universalist to be ambiguous.

    There are a lot of ways to define universalism. I believe that Bell denies a very limited definition of universalism. All of the universalists who I have read would agree with Bell’s statement. Universalists don’t often believe that God will take people to heaven against their will. The fact is, they all believe that God’s grace extended to the world is irresistible. They believe that all people will choose God in their own time. Bell’s comments above are certainly consistent with this kind of universalism.

    • http://www.theology21.com jonathan Keck

      That is interesting Eric. Universalism is a tricky subject. Do any go to heaven apart from Christ? No. Can those who have distorted or incomplete views of Christ go to heaven, yes I think so. Martin Luther is a wonderfully good example. When he cried out to be saved from the storm, he didn’t do so to Christ but to St. Anne. “Saint Anne, Save me. I’ll become a monk!” God took that and answered his prayers though not directed toward him. Do we not make such similar claims of those people in the jungles who, though never hearing the gospel, may stand before God justified by his son’s blood because they honored and respect God as they understood him? Or are those people and the one’s who have lived long before Christ came all doomed to Hell?

      My opinion, which I tried to leave out to some extent in the review, is that God judges humanity by the relationship of our understanding and the condition of our heart.

      When I was a young boy, I knew nothing of the trinity, christology, or any other such thing. But when I made my confession of faith, though grossly in error and with vast misunderstanding, I believe God honored it. And I think He does this of others as well.

      • http://www.danielmajors.com Daniel Majors

        I think I would jump on the CS Lewis train here when, in Mere Christianity, he kind of pokes at the idea of the unknown. Admittedly he says he doesn’t know what may happen to people of other faiths who are good people and attempt to live in a right way, but he believes that God is just and God will do what God will do. In reality we don’t know what will happen with the people in the jungle, or Ghandi, or your really nice great aunt who wasn’t a believer, and siding with Lewis, we don’t know , we really don’t. What I can say that I do like about this whole thing is that we should hope everyone should find their way to heaven, out of this Love which Christ offered us as believers, I think it should be our hope; its why we evangelize, why we missionize, why we put ourselves out there and say we do this in the name of Jesus. I should probably at this point say that I am not a universalist, considering all the controversy, haha

        • http://www.theology21.com jonathan Keck

          “We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know him can be saved through him.” C.S. Lewis

          A complicated, though cherished, Christian thinker.

  • http://twitter.com/mikeyusko Mike Yusko

    If I remember correctly from the interview last night, Bell did say that heaven in some sense is a place that is separate from here. He did not say the same about hell and in fact when the question was re-asked more specifically he still avoided saying anything about it.

    “There is a Hell because we see Hell everyday. Yeah we can resist and we can reject what it means to be fully human and good and decent and compassionate. So yes, there is. And we have that choice now. And I assume we have that choice into the future. Yes.”

    It’s not clear that by future he means an ultimate destination. I will however say that perhaps some of his ambiguity was due to the fact that he’d like to sell some books.

    • http://www.theology21.com jonathan Keck

      I struggled with this very same issue. He did avoid saying the exact statement that he made about Heaven. But his system of thought seems consistent here. Just as heaven touches earth, so too does hell. They overlap like some for of vein diagram. But as soon as I get the book tomorrow (HURRY UPS!) I’ll hopefully get a better idea over the weekend for an actual book review early next week (fingers crossed!).

  • Anonymous

    Regardless of his view (actually, if he holds to orthodox views of Heaven and Hell I think it will be worse) I am extremely disappointed in Rob Bell. The way he went about making the point that “loves wins” was antithetical to his declared purpose. It is obvious that his goal in writing the book was not to glorify Christ or his Church. Bell deliberately created tension and was being ambigiuous for his own selfish gain; he wants to sell books and get publicity. I’ve heard it mentioned several times and no one seems to have a problem with it. This should be a sobering example to us all. We need to be firmly grounded in Christ if we are to successfully navigate this world. I think more should look to the example of John Piper because and his recent decision to step down as teaching pastor of his church for the time being. We need to be evaluating our motives and the motives of others.

    • Eric

      Piper is a great pastor and theologian. He returned to his regular preaching a couple months ago.

      • Anonymous

        Thanks for letting me know Piper returned. I think he is a great theologian and pastor as well. If it was unclear before, I was praising Piper and using him as an example of humility.

        • Eric

          haha. Your post was perfectly clear. I too have a great respect for the fact that he took time away from ministry in order to focus more directly on his family and his marriage. That would be a great example to follow.

    • Steve

      I, on the other hand, think that while Piper is clearly a great pastor and Christian, has some arrogant and oddly combative elements to him. The way he tweeted that “farewell Rob Bell” and made somewhat condemning remarks toward C.S. Lewis for leaving the road to salvation to wide really bothers me. Again, I have no real beef with Piper. I just don’t think orthodoxy rests in his hands.

      • Anonymous

        Thanks for the comment Steve. I totally agree that Piper has done some things that are questionable and that orthodoxy does not rest in his hands. However, I do think that his decision to temporally step down as teaching pastor was a commendable example of humility. Having said that, I think that the best example of humility is Jesus. Jesus should be the rod we use to measure both Piper and Bell, and both of them have times when they do not measure up.

        • http://www.theology21.com jonathan Keck

          Amen.

  • sz

    I really liked your response to Bell’s interview and appreciate that you didn’t go all crazy before reading the book.

  • Eric

    Alright, so now that I went back and actually watched the interview with Rob Bell, I’m pretty convinced that he actually is a universalist. If Bell believes that heaven will eventually be established here on earth and that hell does not exist apart from our experience here on earth, then the natural conclusion is that, eventually, all people will come to heaven. He certainly seems to believe this in the manner of answering some questions. He seems to pose the choice between heaven and hell as a desire for peace, grace, beauty, really really good food and wine, etc. in a way that implies that all people would want heaven if they only come to realize the “hell” caused by their bad decisions. The fact that he quotes verses supporting the idea of a universal restoration, the fact that he refers to Revelation and the picture of the gates to heaven remaining open, the fact that he considers a God who sends people to an existence of eternal pain as a God who is not good are all consistent with universalist mindset.

    I was actually even more surprised at the way that he describes all these things. I’m not entirely sure if Bell really believes in heaven, hell, or even God as things that truly exist apart from conceptualization. To be honest, the way that he describes his beliefs are deeply troubling to me.

    • Steve

      If Bell is a universalist, I want to be one too.

      • Eric

        Its a dangerous thing when we start to equate what we want with our views on reality.

  • http://www.calledtoperu.org Shaun Wissmann

    Whenever I read articles and posts about fellow believers, I always cringe a little bit. It reminds me of how I used to be really into debating over my faith. I used to argue into the early morn. Likewise, if I deemed that a persons theology was off, I would get my war paint on, and get to work.

    Now I am beginning to see the errors of my way.

    I look at the target audience of the book, and in my opinion it is for those that already have their minds made up. It is for the people to criticize, or for the people to feed their belief systems. Now maybe some people are going to be super stoked about this book, and go tell their Muslim friend or Jewish neighbor, or their unbelieving Uncle… but I don’t think so.

    It is difficult to know a man’s motives for doing something, and this something is no different. I do not doubt that Rob Bell is on a journey after God, so I trust that he will allow God to correct him if he is wrong. If everyone is really concerned about his message, we must recognize that just because someone has a loud voice does not mean that the content is worth listening to. That may be the case for his book, I don’t know.

    The sad thing for me is that instead of this being a topic of discussion to the general public, (i.e. A Yahoo Article), it is simply a debate among Christians. The same thing with the decision by Francis Chan. So this does not appear to even come close to fulfilling the Great Commission. Rather it seems to be distracting the Body in debate, and focusing on our brothers and sisters instead of the lost sheep out there; which really irks me.

    I really can’t shake that this kind of stuff is dividing the Church, and preventing people from knowing Jesus in more intimate ways. I am not saying this is not important to talk about, because it is. However, maybe we should really treat issues like these as secondary issues. If someone is getting their theology from Rob Bell’s book, youtube, or Narnia… then they are missing the mark altogether. That is the kind of stuff that needs to be addressed.

    Sadly, I think that books like these are replacing the book the Rob Bell is questioning in the first place.

    • http://www.theology21.com jonathan Keck

      Very well said Shaun. This whole debacle is a tragedy. I don’t like that this sort of bickering is all that the American church has seemed to focus on. We should be focusing on ministering and preaching the Gospel. What if Church leaders got as riled up about defending the vulnerable and the oppressed, as they get about defending “orthodox theology”?

  • Carlton

    Thanks for this article Jon. I really appreciate that it was well thought out. I had stumbled upon the initial eruption of criticism by accident and was very surprised at how harsh it was. I was having a hard time with how many christian people did not think through their responses and just fired from the hip. I thought they would be more responsible than that.
    I find this topic very fascinating. Especially after learning that there are multiple words translated to “hell.” Just as with there are multiple words in Greek and Hebrew for different kinds of love that we read in english as just “love.” I am gonna leave it at this. I gave up being part of debates that turn into arguments for lent and then after easter I hope it sticks. Thanks again for this article, I wish more of the discussion around this topic can stay edifying like this.

    • http://www.theology21.com jonathan Keck

      Thanks Carl. I think that we as the body of Christ, though we may not see eye-to-eye and argue at times, need to show more charity and love toward one another. Yes, if we are convicted by the fact that certain interpretations are wrong, we should correct. But all our words, actions, and demeanors should be first characterized by love.

  • http://nakedtheology.net Francine

    I’ve got to look into the guy. I feel like I’m living under a rock. I do write about theology, but in a lighter vein…and I haven’t written about him either :-)

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